Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
In Science of Sports training, I learned that aerobic running should be done after technical, speed, and strenght workouts. However, in Stretching Scientifically, when Thomas Kurz details his weekly plan, on Monday he includes aerobic running and on Tuesday does a strength workout. Doesn't this go against the principle of endurance after strength?
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
GNARL,
First, I want to thank you for reading, considering, and then asking your question. Many people ask questions without doing their due diligence. You're way ahead of the curve, as they say.
I don't have my book with me, so I'm relying on Article 17 posted on this site (http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch17.html), which I believe mirrors the S of ST text. Please read the following quote:
"Subsequent workouts should alternately stress the neuromuscular system and the vegetative system rather than stressing either one in succession. . . . Days with workouts stressing the vegetative system (anaerobic endurance workout, aerobic endurance workout) are interspaced with days stressing the neuromuscular system (speed workout and strength workout), and there are days when each workout of the day stresses a different system (Matwiejew [Matveev] and Jagiello 1997).
. . .
The next stages of Matveev and Jagiello's research dealt with the influence of subsequent workouts on recovery and with designing and testing weekly sequences of workouts (microcycles). They found that following a workout with a heavy load with another workout with moderate load of the same type (say, two endurance workouts) within the same day increases fatigue and delays recovery. But if the second workout with a moderate load was of a different type (for example, a speed workout with a moderate load following a heavy endurance workout), then it shortened the recovery! They got similar results when workouts were 24 hours apart.
Their research revealed that in effective workout sequences, heavy or moderate loads follow workouts with light or moderate loads that develop other abilities. (A light load is 20–30% of the heavy load volume and a moderate load is 40–60% of the heavy load volume.) Then, after any type of workout with a heavy load, the next workout should have a light or at most a moderate load. In case of microcycles with two workouts per day, only one workout of any type may have a heavy load."
Thus, Kurz's sequence (endurance followed by strength) would have been consistent with the above if Kurz's aerobic workout involved heavy or moderate aerobic training, and his strength workout involved moderate to light loads; or if the aerobic workout was light and the strength workout was heavy; or (I think) if his aerobic training involved different muscle groups--for example, for his strength training he lifted legs, and for his aerobic training he hit the speed bag or shadow boxed (i.e., primarily upper body).
First, I want to thank you for reading, considering, and then asking your question. Many people ask questions without doing their due diligence. You're way ahead of the curve, as they say.
I don't have my book with me, so I'm relying on Article 17 posted on this site (http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch17.html), which I believe mirrors the S of ST text. Please read the following quote:
"Subsequent workouts should alternately stress the neuromuscular system and the vegetative system rather than stressing either one in succession. . . . Days with workouts stressing the vegetative system (anaerobic endurance workout, aerobic endurance workout) are interspaced with days stressing the neuromuscular system (speed workout and strength workout), and there are days when each workout of the day stresses a different system (Matwiejew [Matveev] and Jagiello 1997).
. . .
The next stages of Matveev and Jagiello's research dealt with the influence of subsequent workouts on recovery and with designing and testing weekly sequences of workouts (microcycles). They found that following a workout with a heavy load with another workout with moderate load of the same type (say, two endurance workouts) within the same day increases fatigue and delays recovery. But if the second workout with a moderate load was of a different type (for example, a speed workout with a moderate load following a heavy endurance workout), then it shortened the recovery! They got similar results when workouts were 24 hours apart.
Their research revealed that in effective workout sequences, heavy or moderate loads follow workouts with light or moderate loads that develop other abilities. (A light load is 20–30% of the heavy load volume and a moderate load is 40–60% of the heavy load volume.) Then, after any type of workout with a heavy load, the next workout should have a light or at most a moderate load. In case of microcycles with two workouts per day, only one workout of any type may have a heavy load."
Thus, Kurz's sequence (endurance followed by strength) would have been consistent with the above if Kurz's aerobic workout involved heavy or moderate aerobic training, and his strength workout involved moderate to light loads; or if the aerobic workout was light and the strength workout was heavy; or (I think) if his aerobic training involved different muscle groups--for example, for his strength training he lifted legs, and for his aerobic training he hit the speed bag or shadow boxed (i.e., primarily upper body).
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
Thank you for your quick reply. I read over your post and the column from Stadion.com. In it I also found the order of exercises for each microcycle and it is stated the order should not be reversed. Meaning that aerobic endurance should not be done in the beginning of the microcycle and Mr. Kurz seemed to do so, even though it was after a technical workout. I understand the difference between working the neuromuscular system and vegetative system however I still cannot seem to understand why aerobic endurance would precede strength workout. The stated research shows that a heavy aerobic workout will force the body to take 36 hours to recover the strength. Now it is possible that the aerobic workout was not a heavy load and was maybe a light or moderate one. Or that the body parts that were worked were different but even if the aerobic workout was heavy bag training, it uses muscle of the trunk and specifically the back muscles to a large degree. If Mr. Kurz did deadlifts in his strength workout the next day, which he seems to do often and recommends highly, wouldn't have his back muscles not recovered in time?
Sorry for the overly inquisitive and messy post, just trying to figure out what aspect I'm missing that caused Mr. Kurz to choose this order. I am sure he had very good reason, yet I can't seem to figure it out. Thank you!
Sorry for the overly inquisitive and messy post, just trying to figure out what aspect I'm missing that caused Mr. Kurz to choose this order. I am sure he had very good reason, yet I can't seem to figure it out. Thank you!
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
We're reaching the limits of my knowledge here. Let me look at the book and see if I can figure out what was going on. Also, please note that I referenced the speed bag (and by that I mean the teardrop-looking thing that hangs underneath the round board) and shadow boxing, not heavy bag work.GNARL wrote:. . . but even if the aerobic workout was heavy bag training, it uses muscle of the trunk and specifically the back muscles to a large degree. If Mr. Kurz did deadlifts in his strength workout the next day, which he seems to do often and recommends highly, wouldn't have his back muscles not recovered in time?
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
Yes, you did mention those and but even during speed bag training and shadowboxing/ kickboxing, especially the style Mr. Kurz showed in Secrets of Stretching DVD, his trunk would have been used for all of those, albeit in a non-resistance way.
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
I've found what you were referring to. Page 52 and 53 of Stretching Scientifically. His scedule is, in part:GNARL wrote:In Science of Sports training, I learned that aerobic running should be done after technical, speed, and strenght workouts. However, in Stretching Scientifically, when Thomas Kurz details his weekly plan, on Monday he includes aerobic running and on Tuesday does a strength workout. Doesn't this go against the principle of endurance after strength?
Monday: technical, light isometric, and static stretching and aerobic running for 20-30 mins.
Tuesday: strength, isometric
Wednesday: endurance
It does not sound to me as if Kurz's aerobic running on Monday was strenuous. He does not describe it as being for endurance purposes, and 20 to 30 mins is not lengthy. It sounds to me as though it were a light run. So, given the content of my posts above, I don't see it as being inconsistent with his general recommendation of technical before strength, and strength before endurance.
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
GNARL: I believe that while strength workouts for most body parts need at least a day recovery, the trunk (core) muscles may be worked every day, so running and speed bag practice on the same day should be fine. Obviously, as CSta was getting at with his references, you might not want to do a very heavy strength workout for the back too close to a hard run.
The key to the success of Kurz’ workout order is explained on p. 53 in SS—his M, F workouts were lighter than on Tues and Sat. His workout to develop “endurance for the sport” was on W. Thursday and Sunday were his days off.
My guess is that Kurz' overall workout was not designed around power lifting, everything being relative, during this time when he trained for his sport (martial arts?), so that is also why he was able to maintain a training order that placed moderate endurance running on Monday (either right after the main workout or later in the day) before a strength workout on Tuesday.
Whatever one sets up as a workout routine, common sense says try it, listen to your body, modify and adapt. Case in point—my own workout routine. [Here you can stop reading if you don't care to hear about me
]
For the past two months, I have worked aerobic/UB endurance strength/aerobic/LB endurance strength/aerobic/UB endurance strength six days a week, which put two days recovery between each type of exercise. (The second week, it was aerobic/LB/aerobic/UB/aerobic/LB.) This was to accommodate coming back after a hiatus during which all I did was swim. I made progress, but didn't like it because some weeks I worked legs or UB strength only once (?!).
I am changing it over to aerobic swimming MWF, with two days on, one day off of the endurance strength training--alternate UB and LB, then a day off. This still puts two days recovery between workouts, but I get each 3X a week. 10-20 minutes light aerobic and dynamic stretching precedes each endurance strength workout. I will work body weight core strength after the workouts and before stretching six days a week. Swimming follows the strength workout by a couple of hours, at least. If MW or F happens to be an off strength workout day, aerobic is all I will do that day. Generally, full range of motion while strength training serves to stretch most muscles, but a few relaxed static stretches are in the mix at the end of each workout, or later in the day.
As you can see, all the workouts I have planned are not for builders / power lifters, but rather for speed or endurance, therefore, I do not anticipate problems with recovery when placing an aerobic workout close to a strength workout.
Further, my swimming style is easy on the shoulders and I never use fins, pull buoys or the like--just me and water—so I am not worried about overuse injury. Except maybe for calves/ankles. That one puzzled me as a new swimmer (recently learned/still learning to swim). Seems swimmers can get a lot of power out of their ankles when they kick correctly. Since I was/am nursing an ankle and calf injury, I had to modify my kick and definitely stop springing off the walls on turns. For a while.
Will let you know how it works out.
Cindy
The key to the success of Kurz’ workout order is explained on p. 53 in SS—his M, F workouts were lighter than on Tues and Sat. His workout to develop “endurance for the sport” was on W. Thursday and Sunday were his days off.
My guess is that Kurz' overall workout was not designed around power lifting, everything being relative, during this time when he trained for his sport (martial arts?), so that is also why he was able to maintain a training order that placed moderate endurance running on Monday (either right after the main workout or later in the day) before a strength workout on Tuesday.
Whatever one sets up as a workout routine, common sense says try it, listen to your body, modify and adapt. Case in point—my own workout routine. [Here you can stop reading if you don't care to hear about me
]For the past two months, I have worked aerobic/UB endurance strength/aerobic/LB endurance strength/aerobic/UB endurance strength six days a week, which put two days recovery between each type of exercise. (The second week, it was aerobic/LB/aerobic/UB/aerobic/LB.) This was to accommodate coming back after a hiatus during which all I did was swim. I made progress, but didn't like it because some weeks I worked legs or UB strength only once (?!).
I am changing it over to aerobic swimming MWF, with two days on, one day off of the endurance strength training--alternate UB and LB, then a day off. This still puts two days recovery between workouts, but I get each 3X a week. 10-20 minutes light aerobic and dynamic stretching precedes each endurance strength workout. I will work body weight core strength after the workouts and before stretching six days a week. Swimming follows the strength workout by a couple of hours, at least. If MW or F happens to be an off strength workout day, aerobic is all I will do that day. Generally, full range of motion while strength training serves to stretch most muscles, but a few relaxed static stretches are in the mix at the end of each workout, or later in the day.
As you can see, all the workouts I have planned are not for builders / power lifters, but rather for speed or endurance, therefore, I do not anticipate problems with recovery when placing an aerobic workout close to a strength workout.
Further, my swimming style is easy on the shoulders and I never use fins, pull buoys or the like--just me and water—so I am not worried about overuse injury. Except maybe for calves/ankles. That one puzzled me as a new swimmer (recently learned/still learning to swim). Seems swimmers can get a lot of power out of their ankles when they kick correctly. Since I was/am nursing an ankle and calf injury, I had to modify my kick and definitely stop springing off the walls on turns. For a while.
Will let you know how it works out.
Cindy
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
Thank you for the replies, that was kind of my assumption but just wanted to be sure of it. Because if so, I plan to follow a similar regimen. I do have a quick question regarding for your postings. What do you guys think about splitting strength workouts between body parts like lower and upper or other sorts. I haven't found much about this in the writings of Mr. Kurz however have noticed that he does full body strength workouts. And recommends so in the Secrets of Stretching video if I'm not mistaken. Also, if you split upper and lower body, where do you include exercises of the back? Seems to be used in both. What are your thoughts on this and and or ideas about splitting strength workouts or doing it all in one.
Re: Order of Aerobic Running in Weekly Training.
GNARL:
Splitting workouts? When to do back exercises? I guess it depends on what you are training for.
I split upper body (UB) and lower body (LB) into separate workouts so I can finish everything within 1.5 hours or, preferably, one hour. I've doubled up, doing both UB and LB in the same workout at times to make up for missing a workout, but found I felt more fatigue that way, even when the weekly regimen was 'strength/aerobic/strength/aerobic/strength/aerobic' (see prior post). I still consider my strength workouts "endurance" even though the weights are heavy enough that I may gain a couple of pounds. Furthermore, I need to add up to an hour later in the day for relaxed stretching.
Body builders who lift intense weights sometimes break workouts down even further, for example working specific UB parts in separate workouts. Their goals are different than mine, however, and they book a lot more gym time.
As for when to do back exercises, there is a lot of good info on that in the Secrets of Stretching DVD--where to begin if you are just starting out, prerequisites to cover before getting into isometrics, when to do back and ab exercises--if your goal is flexibility in the legs. At one point, Kurz notes that you should have two days rest after heavy back extensions.
In my split workout, I work bodyweight abs and back daily, but include back strength exercises on LB day, always to include good mornings, deadlifts and nose to wall squats.
Cindy
Splitting workouts? When to do back exercises? I guess it depends on what you are training for.
I split upper body (UB) and lower body (LB) into separate workouts so I can finish everything within 1.5 hours or, preferably, one hour. I've doubled up, doing both UB and LB in the same workout at times to make up for missing a workout, but found I felt more fatigue that way, even when the weekly regimen was 'strength/aerobic/strength/aerobic/strength/aerobic' (see prior post). I still consider my strength workouts "endurance" even though the weights are heavy enough that I may gain a couple of pounds. Furthermore, I need to add up to an hour later in the day for relaxed stretching.
Body builders who lift intense weights sometimes break workouts down even further, for example working specific UB parts in separate workouts. Their goals are different than mine, however, and they book a lot more gym time.
As for when to do back exercises, there is a lot of good info on that in the Secrets of Stretching DVD--where to begin if you are just starting out, prerequisites to cover before getting into isometrics, when to do back and ab exercises--if your goal is flexibility in the legs. At one point, Kurz notes that you should have two days rest after heavy back extensions.
In my split workout, I work bodyweight abs and back daily, but include back strength exercises on LB day, always to include good mornings, deadlifts and nose to wall squats.
Cindy